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Steve Wozniak Interview on NetFM: The Future of Music and Technology

 

LISTEN: To the Steve Wozniak interview - 29 September, 2023 (© Copyright NetFM)

 

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Read the Transcript - 29 September, 2023 (© Copyright NetFM)

 

(0:04) What an honour to be on NET-FM. (0:06) I know you're a huge fan of music, (0:08) and I was just wondering if you might be able to (0:10) give us a bit of an idea of what your top three artists are (0:12) and explain a little bit about why you like them. (0:15) Bob Dylan has to be one of them.

 

(0:18) Good choice. (0:18) Even though I go mainly back to kind of his early, (0:22) early start, about the first, you know, five or six albums. (0:24) And the day I met Steve Jobs, (0:27) he was young and didn't have albums.

 

(0:29) So I took him down to my house and I showed him (0:31) every Bob Dylan album, the liner notes (0:34) and the lyrics to the songs. (0:35) Both, you know, were so amazing to us. (0:38) And we went to a lot of concerts together, (0:40) bought a lot of special tickets together.

 

(0:42) So Dylan always stands out in my head, (0:44) even though I don't really listen to him that much anymore. (0:47) Was very important. (0:48) You know, it's just songs that were kind of about (0:50) society and life and right and wrong.

 

(0:53) And, you know, songs like with God on our side. (0:56) And so it just had so many. (0:59) I mean, but when he got to the electric phase (1:01) with, you know, Mr. Tambourine Man and Like a Rolling Stone.

 

(1:04) Oh, my God. (1:06) Just amazing what he could put in your head. (1:08) That was kind of the start of favourite groups for me.

 

(1:11) Of course, I was into the classic rock and roll (1:14) in those those years. (1:16) What bands or artists were in that classic rock and roll (1:20) category in those years for you? (1:23) Just all the ones, you know, the first concert I went to (1:24) was in the Fillmore, San Francisco in 1969. (1:29) And my gosh, Junior Walker and the All Stars, (1:32) you know, he did his trumpet or whatever.

 

(1:34) And just it just went into my body. (1:36) And I'd be a fan of live music forever, (1:37) followed by the Jefferson Aeroplane, (1:39) followed by the Grateful Dead and all the groups. (1:42) You go back to every one of them.

 

(1:43) And they were, you know, largely a lot of them (1:45) from San Francisco in those days. (1:49) So that, you know, I just every single one of them. (1:52) And, you know, and sometimes I hear old songs (1:55) that you almost never hear, like Buffalo Springfield, (1:58) you know, or a couple of others, (2:00) and I just die hearing them.

 

(2:02) So, but that was what I was listening to back then. (2:07) And I'd have to say that Simon and Garfunkel (2:10) were extremely important to me too (2:11) because of their folk content, (2:14) the folk scene that was going on in New York (2:16) and the words they put just sort of fit my own life so much. (2:21) You know, even songs like The Boxer (2:25) and it started with Sounds of Silence to this day.

 

(2:32) You know, these are the sort of songs (2:33) that there's never a better song anywhere. (2:36) But then also when you ask (2:39) about three favourite bands and artists, (2:41) it is so difficult because I go to so much music. (2:44) My wife and I go to dozens of concerts a year.

 

(2:47) I went to every single concert (2:48) at the large Silicon Valley Amphitheatre, (2:50) which I started with Bill Graham for 27 years, (2:54) saw all the big well-known groups. (2:56) And then I decided, no, (2:57) just gonna go to small little places (2:59) and see groups not that many people know. (3:01) But back in that time, Springsteen, his songs, (3:05) I just can't believe they're not, (3:07) I love songs when they sound real, (3:08) like they're coming from somebody's real life, (3:11) describing it like you feel the people (3:13) that they're talking about and what they were like (3:15) and what was their head like in the song? (3:18) And especially like it when they seem to be living it (3:20) as they sing it.

 

(3:21) And Springsteen, so many of his, (3:23) almost all the songs he says are just really fictional. (3:27) He just had a real good touch on what made a great song. (3:31) But I mean, it started with Thunder Road and like, (3:35) oh, I'm forgetting names of songs right now, (3:38) but yeah, I liked a lot that was on (3:40) his lesser regarded albums, Nebraska, (3:45) and trying to think the one that had Black Cowboys on it.

 

(3:49) I love that song so much and nobody would ever, (3:52) hardly ever hear the songs that were on those albums (3:55) and like them all. (3:56) We always, we have a fairly extensive music library (4:01) here at Native FM, but some of the artists (4:03) you've just mentioned, Dan, (4:04) I doubt very much whether we've got them on there, (4:06) but we'll source them. (4:08) Yeah, go ahead.

 

(4:09) Yeah, my life changed in music drastically (4:12) when a little radio station started up (4:14) that played stuff that was not on standard stations (4:17) that were supported by the music industry. (4:19) Little station in Gilroy, California called KFAT. (4:22) Oh my gosh, and it was largely a lot of country-ish (4:25) and full country songs and things I'd never ever heard (4:29) or experienced, Emmylou Harrison and all, (4:32) and I met one of the founders of those last night (4:35) at a concert that I was attending.

 

(4:37) So, but 15 years ago, I made a rule (4:40) after seeing all the top groups in the world constantly (4:42) at Shoreline Amphitheatre in Mountain View, California, (4:46) Silicon Valley, I made a decision (4:49) that I'd only want to see small groups. (4:50) I wouldn't go to any of the big venues (4:52) like that amphitheatre or the arenas or stadiums. (4:55) And I've only broken it just a very few times.

 

(4:59) Like once I was in Milan and I saw that Coldplay (5:04) was doing a concert in the stadium and I got a ticket. (5:07) And yeah, the music's good, but it's not the same feeling (5:09) as when you're in a small place really feeling an artist, (5:12) like they're living it as they're creating it. (5:15) And another one I went to was Springsteen way back, (5:22) one of his great albums was called The River.

 

(5:25) And I went to his River Tour concert in the Oakland arena. (5:29) And I wound up with a wife and three kids. (5:33) And the music fits.

 

(5:34) So he did a redo recent, a few years ago (5:37) of his River Tour album. (5:40) He did it in the same arena, the Oakland arena. (5:43) And I went and saw it there again, just had to.

 

(5:47) There's some things you just can't pass up. (5:48) There's a couple of groups right now (5:49) that if they played in a large arena, I would go see them. (5:53) You know, groups like The Killers and National.

 

(5:57) We're gonna see National in a fairly large place (5:59) pretty soon, very lucky to catch up on that. (6:02) But Springsteen was just so important in my life. (6:05) Every song, so good.

 

(6:07) And even when other people do covers, (6:09) you know, like Ramiro, I just die over his lyrics. (6:14) He's so good at it. (6:15) And a third group that I'm gonna mention (6:17) is a common one that people don't know yet.

 

(6:19) I like finding groups when they're unknown. (6:21) For example, I went to a little concert (6:23) in a record store in San Francisco with about 30 people. (6:28) And I got to meet the artist for half an hour (6:31) in her dressing room before the show.

 

(6:33) She was unknown. (6:34) And it was Lana Del Rey. (6:36) I love meeting her.

 

(6:38) Yeah, a few of them I meet early and they get huge. (6:41) They get really, really huge. (6:43) And this guy, I heard his song.

 

(6:45) He didn't have a record contract at all. (6:48) He was the first person to get on the Billboard 100 (6:50) with no record contract. (6:51) And he hit number one with a song called Heading South (6:55) where they let you play your music real damn loud.

 

(6:58) And I don't know, all there was was a video online (7:01) of him outside his Navy barracks. (7:04) He was in the Navy and he's just sitting on a chair (7:07) with shorts and he's playing that song. (7:09) And just, you know, it's a six star song.

 

(7:13) And he rose and I sent my friends in Nashville (7:16) my comments that he was gonna be the future (7:18) of country music. (7:20) You know, really going out on a limb for people (7:22) that live with country music. (7:23) And he rose to the top now headlining stadiums (7:27) in just two years.

 

(7:29) The fastest rock is ever like that. (7:31) And every song he sings like on, (7:33) if you look at TikTok versions or something, (7:36) it's just amazing. (7:37) The voice is the greatest musical instrument ever created.

 

(7:40) And the way he uses it, and you just feel every song (7:43) is so real, coming from real life. (7:46) So Zach Bryan is his name. (7:50) And I could go on as many as hundreds (7:51) because I see dozens of concerts a year.

 

(7:54) I mean, even last night I went to one (7:56) and I get to know a lot of the artists well. (7:59) So it's very difficult to pick just three of them. (8:02) When you were visiting Australia some years back, (8:05) you had befriended an Australian music group.

 

(8:09) A very good friends with, oh, I'm trying to remember (8:13) his name from Down South, that album. (8:18) Men at Work. (8:20) My wife and I have befriended him (8:22) and we do email with him and get to his concerts (8:24) when we can.

 

(8:25) ♪ Well it ain't no use sitting and wondering why I've been ♪ (8:31) ♪ Even you don't know about it ♪ (8:34) ♪ And it ain't no use sitting and wondering why I've been ♪ (8:39) ♪ It'll never do somehow ♪ (8:43) ♪ When your rooster crows at the break of dawn ♪ (8:48) ♪ Look out your window and I'll be gone ♪ (8:52) ♪ You're the reason I'm travelling on ♪ (8:56) ♪ But don't think twice, it's all right ♪ (9:12) ♪ And it ain't no use in turning on your light, babe ♪ (9:16) ♪ The light I never knowed ♪ (9:20) ♪ And it ain't no use in turning on your light, babe ♪ (9:25) ♪ I'm on the dark side of the road ♪ (9:29) ♪ But I wish there was something you would do or say ♪ (9:33) ♪ Try and make me change my mind and stay ♪ (9:38) ♪ We never did too much talking anyway ♪ (9:42) ♪ But don't think twice, it's all right ♪ (9:50) ♪ So it ain't no use in calling out my name, gal ♪ (10:00) ♪ Like you never done before ♪ (10:04) ♪ And it ain't no use in calling out my name, gal ♪ (10:08) ♪ I can't hear you anymore ♪ (10:12) ♪ I'm a-thinking and a-wondering, walking down the road ♪ (10:16) ♪ I once loved a woman, a child I'm told ♪ (10:21) ♪ I'd give her my heart, but she wanted my soul ♪ (10:25) ♪ But don't think twice, it's all right ♪ (10:34) ♪ So long, honeybee, where I'm bound ♪ (10:48) ♪ I can't tell, goodbye's too good a word, baby ♪ (10:55) ♪ So I just say, fairly well ♪ (10:59) ♪ I ain't saying you treated me unkind ♪ (11:03) ♪ You could've done better, but I don't mind ♪ (11:07) ♪ You just kinda wasted my precious time ♪ (11:12) ♪ But don't think twice, it's all right ♪ (11:50) Net FM, Worldwide Radio. (11:55) ♪ Hello, darkness, my old friend ♪ (12:00) ♪ I've come to talk with you again ♪ (12:05) ♪ Because a vision softly creeping ♪ (12:10) ♪ Left its seeds while I was sleeping ♪ (12:14) ♪ And the vision that was planted in my brain ♪ (12:20) ♪ Still remains within the sound of silence ♪ (12:29) ♪ In restless dreams I walked alone ♪ (12:35) ♪ Down the streets of Cold Stone ♪ (12:39) ♪ In the middle of a mystery land ♪ (12:43) ♪ I turned my collar to the cold and damp ♪ (12:48) ♪ When my eyes were stabbed by the flash of a neon light ♪ (12:55) ♪ It split the night and touched the sound of silence ♪ (13:04) ♪ And in the naked light I saw ♪ (13:08) ♪ 10,000 people, maybe more ♪ (13:13) ♪ People talking without speaking ♪ (13:18) ♪ People hearing without listening ♪ (13:22) ♪ People writing songs that voices never share ♪ (13:30) ♪ No wonder it split the sound of silence ♪ (13:39) ♪ Things that I did not know ♪ (13:43) ♪ Silence tied the cancer rope ♪ (13:48) ♪ Give my words that I might teach you ♪ (13:52) ♪ Take my arms that I might lead you ♪ (13:57) ♪ Give my words like siren in the raindrops fell ♪ (14:06) ♪ Echoing in the wind of silence ♪ (14:12) ♪ And the people bowed and prayed ♪ (14:18) ♪ And the ungodly made ♪ (14:22) ♪ And the siren crashed out its warning ♪ (14:27) ♪ In the words that it was warning ♪ (14:31) ♪ And the siren said the words of the prophets are written ♪ (14:36) ♪ On the subway walls ♪ (14:39) ♪ 10,000 people whispering in the sound of silence ♪ (14:53) A lot of the listeners don't know this. (14:55) You started your own version of Woodstock (14:58) back in the early 80s.

 

(15:00) Very correct. (15:01) It was a huge enterprise, wasn't it? (15:03) Music was so important to me (15:06) and I wanted to put on a great concert (15:08) with some of the greatest collection of groups ever. (15:10) And, you know, Woodstock had been passed (15:12) and there were bad things about that.

 

(15:14) And then the concert came where the Rolling Stones, (15:18) there were shootings in Altamont, (15:20) Altamont up here in California, (15:22) a lot of bad things, a lot of bad word about it. (15:25) And now there was some dead period (15:26) and I wanted to put on a really great one, (15:29) planned, with a lot of money to do everything the right way (15:32) and, you know, concessions, everything. (15:35) And we had not music people doing it, (15:37) more like professional businessmen.

 

(15:39) And we set up this concert we called the Us Festival (15:43) and we had an intent to tell people (15:45) it's better to work together, to be together, (15:47) like you are at a big concert, (15:49) than to have conflict and fighting. (15:51) It was kind of along the lines of the paper that, (15:55) oh, the guy wrote for Beautiful Minds. (15:58) Oh, there was some guy.

 

(16:00) But anyway, it was business paper and I was into it. (16:03) And we wrote a curriculum for schools (16:05) and distributed it to all 50 states on this principle. (16:10) But our Us Festival was very, very unique and different.

 

(16:14) Looking back, people who know about it, (16:15) we never, we weren't in the, (16:17) we didn't get the music recognition we should have. (16:19) It was the best concert of any, (16:21) any of the huge festivals you see (16:23) with all the greatest groups. (16:24) You go back and look up the Us Festival, (16:25) it was absolutely the best.

 

(16:27) We sold a million tickets over two years (16:29) in Southern California. (16:31) And we had the largest stage ever. (16:34) It was the first time ever that we had speakers down into, (16:37) we built an amphitheatre that could hold 500,000 people.

 

(16:40) We had speakers halfway down that were, you know, (16:43) time delayed with the music. (16:45) It was also the first concert ever in the United States (16:47) with a large video screen. (16:48) That didn't exist before.

 

(16:50) I mean, we were breaking ground (16:51) and we were the first time ever (16:53) using that large video screen. (16:55) We set up the first three space bridges, (16:58) two-way video between the United States (17:00) and the Soviet Union during the Cold War. (17:04) And the only reason it was possible (17:05) was NBC had taken a bunch of television equipment (17:08) over to Moscow to broadcast the Olympics (17:11) that the United States pulled out of (17:13) when the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan.

 

(17:16) We pulled out, the equipment was there. (17:18) And the television people in the Soviet Union (17:20) wanted to do this big setup. (17:22) And first we sent music both directions.

 

(17:25) And, you know, audience booed a bit when I announced it (17:27) because, I mean, back then in the Soviet Union, (17:30) Cold War was like Al-Qaeda. (17:32) And then we had people talking to people (17:34) and you realised we're the same. (17:36) The propaganda of the governments dissolved.

 

(17:39) So I spent quite a number of, you know, 10 to 20 years (17:43) doing a lot with Soviet Union, U.S. peace things. (17:48) Unbelievable stories, but I don't have time for that here. (17:50) But I did put on the first concert in a stadium (17:54) outside of Moscow.

 

(17:56) First concert ever that had top Russian groups (17:59) and top American groups. (18:01) Took over four top American groups. (18:04) Interesting twist in the US concert.

 

(18:08) And it is a connection with your son. (18:11) Yeah, he was born on the first day of the concert. (18:13) I had to open the concert (18:13) holding less than 24 hour child in my hands (18:17) talking about, you know, new birth.

 

(18:19) And you brought him on stage, didn't you? (18:21) Yes, I did. (18:22) Very briefly, you know, (18:23) and we have a huge wide photo of it. (18:25) I still have, you know, (18:26) one of these huge ones that stretches across an entire wall.

 

(18:29) It was kind of cool. (18:31) So we had top equipment. (18:32) Unfortunately, I didn't intend to.

 

(18:34) I wanted to make money, (18:35) but I lost a lot of money on the 2US festivals. (18:39) And so I couldn't keep doing it. (18:40) But it did show that there was a market (18:43) for that sort of thing.

 

(18:44) Sure, sure. (18:45) Now I want to ask you about the Eagles. (18:48) Obviously you're a fan.

 

(18:50) Oh yeah. (18:51) And you tried to get them to reform. (18:55) For the US festival, we did.

 

(18:57) And they came very close. (18:58) But one of them out in Hawaii somewhere didn't, (19:02) I forget which one, but didn't want to do it. (19:04) We came close.

 

(19:06) Okay, worth a try. (19:07) And when they did reform, (19:08) when they did reform years later in the 90s, (19:10) they did a set in our Shoreline Amphitheatre (19:13) here in Silicon Valley. (19:14) Five days in a row.

 

(19:17) Those are the most extremely incredible days of my life. (19:20) It's been the third, fourth, and fifth day they played. (19:23) It's just like, what an incredible group that is.

 

(19:26) Have you got a favourite Eagles song? (19:28) No, Don Henley, some of his individual songs, (19:31) maybe Age of the Innocents and, (19:35) oh gosh, I'm trying to remember right now. (19:36) When I hear it on the radio, (19:37) it's things I do thousands of songs. (19:40) So it's hard to pull them up just instantly.

 

(19:42) But he has a couple of songs (19:43) that are so important. (19:45) And of course, the Eagles together, I mean, (19:47) I don't know, the California song (19:51) has a lot of deep, had a lot of good meaning, (19:53) but they're all so good. (19:55) Joe Walsh getting up there and his songs are so great.

 

(19:59) So I can't really, (20:01) it's hard to pick one out (20:02) when there's a whole bunch of six-star songs in there. (20:13) ♪ Eucalyptus rising up through the air ♪ (20:18) ♪ Up ahead in the distance, I saw a shimmering light ♪ (20:25) ♪ My head grew heavy and my sight grew dim ♪ (20:28) ♪ I had to stop for the night ♪ (20:31) ♪ There she stood in the doorway, I heard the mission bell ♪ (20:38) ♪ And I was thinking to myself, this could be heaven ♪ (20:42) ♪ This could be heaven ♪ (20:45) ♪ Then she lit up a candle and she showed me the way ♪ (20:51) ♪ There were voices down the corridor, I thought I heard them say ♪ (20:57) ♪ Welcome to the Hotel California ♪ (21:03) ♪ Such a lovely place, such a lovely place, such a lovely place ♪ (21:10) ♪ Ready a room at the Hotel California ♪ (21:16) ♪ Any time of year, any time of year, you can find it here ♪ (21:23) ♪ Her mind is differently twisted, she got the Mercedes Benz ♪ (21:29) ♪ She got a lot of pretty, pretty boys, she calls fans ♪ (21:36) ♪ How they dance in the courtyard, sweet summer sweat ♪ (21:43) ♪ Some dance to remember, some dance to forget ♪ (21:49) ♪ So I called up the captain, please bring me my wine ♪ (21:55) ♪ He said, we haven't had that spirit here since 1969 ♪ (22:03) ♪ And still those voices are calling from far away ♪ (22:09) ♪ Wake you up in the middle of the night, just to hear them say ♪ (22:15) ♪ Welcome to the Hotel California ♪ (22:21) ♪ Such a lovely place, such a lovely place, such a lovely place ♪ (22:27) ♪ They're living it up at the Hotel California ♪ (22:34) ♪ What a nice surprise, what a nice surprise, we're out of ice ♪ (22:41) ♪ Mirrors on the ceiling, the pink champagne on ice ♪ (22:47) ♪ And she said, we are all just prisoners here of our own device ♪ (22:54) ♪ And in the master's chambers, they're gathered for the feast ♪ (23:01) ♪ They stab it with their stealing eyes, but they just can't kill the beast ♪ (23:07) ♪ The last thing I remember, I was running for the door ♪ (23:14) ♪ I had to find the passage back to the place I was before ♪ (23:19) ♪ We're like second life men, we are programmed to receive ♪ (23:27) ♪ You can check out anytime you like, but you can never leave ♪ (23:52) ♪♪ (25:25) ♪♪ (25:55) ♪♪ (26:25) ♪♪ (26:55) ♪♪ (27:36) ♪♪ (27:49) ♪♪ (27:59) ♪♪ (28:00) ♪♪ (28:23) ♪♪ (28:30) My standard for a six-star song, it has to be as good as Sultans of Swing. (28:36) You play guitar, don't you? (28:38) I did play for about 20 years every day of my life.

 

(28:41) My hands can't do it right now, and I don't remember the chord. (28:45) It's been a long time since I played, but I keep a lot of guitars near me. (28:48) My wife gets them to me for gifts, birthday gifts and things like that.

 

(28:52) And I love my guitar collection and my favourite guitar of all time. (28:57) I don't know, I got lost. It got given away to somebody, didn't return it or something.

 

(29:01) Which is a bummer, yeah. (29:03) Remember them like your favourite pets that you've had. (29:06) I never played with anyone else or in front of anyone else, (29:10) except very rarely in front of a spouse, maybe.

 

(29:14) One time I took it to work where I had one of my startup companies, (29:18) and I played it there so they could just hear me. (29:19) But it was just playing, not singing. (29:22) You get really good after 20 years.

 

(29:25) One of our listeners sent us an email recently. (29:28) We put out the call to ask you questions, and we've got a few to ask you. (29:33) But the one about your guitar, I might as well read it out.

 

(29:36) It was from Gabriel, and he or she says, (29:40) I heard that you play the guitar. (29:43) How often do you practise, and have you jammed with anyone famous? (29:48) You've basically answered most of them, I reckon. (29:50) Yeah, I used to play for, when I played, I played for 20 minutes, (29:54) about two or three times a day.

 

(29:56) And I would just, it just relaxed me. (29:58) It was the most beautiful thing in my life. (30:01) So, I don't know, I love guitar, expressive guitars, (30:05) and guitar notes and music can put my head in heaven to this day.

 

(30:08) Nowadays, I do not practise. (30:10) I sat down a couple of times to try it on my guitars. (30:13) They're not even in tune.

 

(30:14) My hands aren't what they used to be anymore, my fingers. (30:18) Not at all. (30:19) I play drums, so I understand what you're saying.

 

(30:21) It's just relaxing. (30:22) It's just so pleasant. (30:24) Thank you.

 

(30:25) You know exactly. (30:27) Yes, I do. (30:28) Yeah, one time, I mean, I loved Dire Straits music, (30:31) and one time I was in London, Piccadilly Circus, (30:33) and there was a wax museum.

 

(30:36) So, I went through the wax museum. (30:37) Oh my God, I stopped, stunned, mouth open. (30:40) It was Mark Knopfler.

 

(30:42) They had one of Mark Knopfler there. (30:48) I've never met him. (30:49) I have seen him, you know, even in recent times, (30:53) seen him play, but never met him, never met Dire Straits.

 

(30:57) I went over to the very first Live Aid that was in London, (31:00) and it was in Wembley Stadium, and where I was sitting, (31:03) the music quality, which is important to me, (31:06) was horrible for every group. (31:07) I just was going to stay only for Dire Straits, (31:10) and they played. (31:11) And where I was seated, you know, under some metal overhang, (31:14) it just didn't sound good.

 

(31:16) And so that was a bummer. (31:19) There was a video online I saw recently, (31:22) the last week or so, (31:24) a street performer was, a very good street performer (31:28) who was playing electric guitar, (31:30) was just playing a few songs, (31:32) and someone was videoing the performance. (31:37) And I think that someone was a friend (31:39) of a very famous singer and guitar player in the audience, (31:44) and it was Mark Knopfler.

 

(31:46) And yeah, and the guitarist, the busker, (31:49) didn't realise who Mark Knopfler is, (31:51) and he asked for any requests. (31:53) And Mark Knopfler said, (31:54) do you know anything that Dire Straits played? (31:57) And he said, yeah, yeah, yeah. (32:00) So he played Sultans of Swing, (32:02) but in his own version of it.

 

(32:03) It was just fantastic. (32:06) It's funny you bring this up, (32:08) because I watch TikTok for an hour at night, (32:12) mainly because it feeds me a whole bunch of (32:15) animals in danger and humans saving them, (32:17) rescue stories. (32:19) But it also sends me buskers, (32:22) buskers because I guess I've liked them enough.

 

(32:24) And many, I might have even seen that one. (32:42) I see double fall time (32:46) You feel all right (32:48) When you hear the new chain ring (32:55) Well now you step inside (32:57) But you don't see too many faces (33:03) Coming in out of the rain (33:04) To hear the jazz go down (33:10) Competition in other places (33:16) But the horns keep blowing that sound (33:22) Way on down south (33:24) Way on down south (33:28) London town (33:40) You check out Guitar George (33:43) He knows all the chords (33:47) But he's strictly rhythm (33:49) He doesn't want to make them cry or sing (33:55) If Danny knows guitar is all (33:58) He can't afford (34:01) When he gets up under the lights (34:03) To play his thing (34:07) And Harry doesn't mind (34:13) If he doesn't make the scene (34:17) He's got a day time job (34:19) He's doing all right (34:24) He can play the honky tonk (34:26) Like anything (34:30) Saving it up (34:32) Friday night (34:37) With the sultans (34:40) With the sultans of swing (34:55) In the crowd of young boys (34:57) They're fooling around in the corner (35:00) Brown baggies in their platform so (35:09) They don't give a damn (35:11) About any trumpet (35:13) Playing band (35:15) It ain't what they call rock and roll (35:22) And the sultans (35:26) Yeah the sultans (35:28) They play Creole (35:33) Creole (35:42) They say they're the last (36:40) The night to go home (36:46) And he makes it fast (36:54) We are the sultans (36:57) We are the sultans of swing (38:25) We'll take you up to June (38:28) Like your daddy John (38:32) Me and Mary we met in high school (38:36) And she was just seventeen (38:40) We'd drive out of this valley (38:44) Down to where fields were green (38:51) We'd go down to the river (38:55) We'd dive oh down to (39:01) That was all she wrote (39:16) And for my nineteenth birthday (39:19) I got a union card (39:21) And a wedding coat (39:24) We went down to the courthouse (39:28) And the judge put it all to rest (39:31) No wedding day smiles (39:35) No walk down the aisle (39:36) No flowers no wedding dress (39:40) That night we went down (39:42) To the river (39:44) And into the river we dived (39:48) Oh down to the river (39:52) We did ride (39:54) I got a job working construction (40:35) For the Johnstown company (40:40) But lately there ain't been much work (40:43) On account of the economy (40:48) Now all them things (40:50) That seemed so important (40:51) Well mister they vanished (40:54) Right into the air (40:55) Now I just act like (40:58) I don't remember (40:59) And Mary acts like (41:02) She don't care (41:04) But I do (41:05) I remember us riding (41:07) In my brother's car (41:08) Her body tan and wet (41:10) Down at the reservoir (41:13) At night on the banks (41:15) I'd lie awake (41:16) And pull her clothes just to feel (41:19) Each breath she'd take (41:20) Those memories come back (41:23) To haunt me (41:25) They haunt me (41:27) Like a curse (41:29) Is a dream a lie (41:31) That don't come true (41:33) Is it something worse (41:36) That sends me (41:38) Down to the river (41:41) I know the river is dry (41:44) That sends me (41:46) Down to the river (41:49) Tonight (41:53) Down to the river (41:57) My baby and I (42:01) Oh down to the river (42:03) Down to the river (42:05) We ride (42:09) Now I've got another question (42:52) From a listener from Sasha (42:54) And Sasha says (42:56) It's in relation to the (42:57) Big Bang Theory TV show (42:59) The question is (43:00) Did you enjoy appearing (43:02) On the BBT (43:05) And was that your wife (43:06) With you in the (43:08) Cheesecake factory scene (43:10) And then there's the last part of it (43:13) Excellent questions (43:13) My wife and I (43:14) Don't watch TV (43:16) We're watching a little bit of (43:18) Serieses now (43:18) Ever since COVID (43:20) But we didn't watch any TV (43:21) And before I'd been on (43:23) Dancing with the Stars (43:24) They called and I said (43:25) Who is that? (43:26) What is it? (43:26) I'd never seen it (43:27) I'd never seen ballroom dancing (43:28) I said (43:29) I turned them down a couple times (43:30) And finally a friend (43:31) Talked me into doing it (43:33) So when the Big Bang Theory (43:34) Called my wife took it (43:35) She said (43:35) Oh wait a minute (43:37) After Dancing with the Stars (43:38) We've got to see some video (43:40) They sent us a disc (43:41) Of like (43:42) Season 3 or something (43:44) And I loved it (43:46) I am so much into comedy (43:47) And humour (43:48) And especially the tech side of that (43:50) I hadn't seen it yet (43:51) So of course I did it (43:53) And I was surprised (43:55) They let my real wife play (43:57) They didn't like have to put in (43:58) Somebody who's in the business (44:00) You know an actress (44:01) And so yes (44:03) That was ourselves (44:05) And the last part of the (44:07) Listener's question (44:08) Has to do with (44:09) An important part of (44:11) That appearance (44:12) And that is (44:14) You might recall (44:15) Sheldon Cooper (44:18) Built a virtual presence device (44:21) It was (44:22) Well it was great (44:23) It was a real (44:24) One from a company (44:25) Here in Silicon Valley (44:26) And it came up (44:27) And of course Sheldon on his side (44:29) Is trying to get me out of (44:30) Out of character (44:31) When I'm saying my lines (44:32) By making all these (44:33) Funny faces at me (44:34) What I should have done was (44:35) What I can do (44:36) I can roll my eyes in a circle (44:38) Both eyes (44:39) And then up and down (44:40) Left and right (44:41) And right and left (44:41) And then angled diagonals (44:43) And I should have done that (44:44) To him (44:47) But no (44:48) It was so great to see (44:49) How that kind of a show (44:50) Is made (44:50) You don't know in your life (44:52) How do they make (44:53) You know a sitcom (44:54) A sitcom (44:55) You've got to meet (44:56) All the people (44:57) And see all the things (44:57) They do and what it takes (44:58) To make a show (44:59) And then they do (45:00) Two live (45:00) They do a live performance (45:02) On Tuesdays (45:03) But they do every scene (45:04) Two times (45:05) And they'll put in (45:06) A couple little changes (45:08) In between the scenes (45:08) Based on how the writers (45:10) Think the (45:10) You know what's going over (45:11) With the audience (45:12) And the producers (45:13) Were so great (45:14) No we (45:15) We got (45:15) We're still friends (45:17) With them (45:17) You know to this day (45:18) Johnny Glecki (45:19) Likes to write us (45:20) And he's retired (45:21) In like Tennessee (45:22) Kind of (45:23) And just living a good life (45:24) You know (45:25) Doesn't have to be (45:26) In the rap race (45:26) You mentioned once (45:28) To me about (45:29) The whiteboards (45:31) That they had set up (45:32) With all the formulas (45:33) They asked me (45:34) To do one of those (45:35) I forget what (45:36) They called them (45:37) But (45:38) I never got the time (45:40) To it (45:40) I think (45:41) They had (45:42) They had professors (45:43) Physics professors (45:44) You know from (45:45) A local college (45:46) To help (45:46) Yeah I think you said (45:47) That Caltech (45:48) Was involved as well (45:50) It was Caltech (45:51) But USC (45:52) But it was a top professor (45:53) That was giving them (45:55) A lot of good ideas (45:55) For what to put on those (45:57) I forget the word (45:57) They used (45:58) To describe it (45:59) But it was really great (46:00) To see (46:00) I got to see how (46:01) A big show like (46:02) Like Dancing with the Stars (46:03) Is made (46:04) And it's really funny (46:06) Because you think (46:06) Oh this is really elegant (46:08) Well just be in there (46:09) You're a low paid extra (46:11) You have to come (46:12) You're forced to wear a suit (46:13) And you sit in the audience (46:14) But the guys with the cameras (46:15) Are in shorts (46:16) And t-shirts (46:17) And they're not on the video (46:19) Now next question is (46:21) It relates to the (46:22) Silicon Valley Comic Con (46:24) And it's from Dale (46:26) And Dale says (46:27) Do you still have an interest (46:29) In SVC (46:31) Silicon Valley Comic Con (46:32) Obviously (46:32) Do you still (46:33) Since Stan Lee (46:35) Since Stan Lee's passing (46:38) Stan Lee and I (46:39) Became extremely close friends (46:41) Did some things together (46:42) And it was very sad (46:44) To see him go (46:45) I admired him (46:46) So much (46:47) That was (46:47) But that wasn't really (46:49) A defining factor (46:50) I was associated (46:52) With the (46:52) Silicon Valley Comic Con (46:54) On a (46:55) On a partnership (46:56) With a guy (46:57) Who had made (46:58) A couple hundred million (46:58) In a company (46:59) That really (46:59) I was one (47:00) That made it for them (47:01) And (47:02) And (47:03) You know (47:03) He started cheating me (47:05) He was a partner (47:06) That just (47:06) He got divorced (47:07) And kind of like (47:08) I lost half of what (47:09) I was supposed to have (47:10) So then I went back (47:11) To Comic Con (47:12) And I said (47:12) Okay (47:12) I'll sit in a chair (47:13) All day (47:14) And sign autographs (47:15) For anyone (47:16) Who donates (47:16) To Animal Rescue (47:18) And they could (47:19) Donate money (47:20) And get a signature (47:21) From me (47:21) On something (47:23) So I basically (47:24) Backed out (47:25) You know (47:26) Hey if you're not (47:26) Going to keep (47:27) The original deal (47:51) You know (47:56) If you're not (47:57) Going to keep (47:57) The original deal (47:57) You're going to (47:58) Yeah (48:00) I kind of (48:00) Get that impression (48:01) Yeah (48:01) That's good (48:02) That's nice (48:02) What (48:04) Any (48:05) Just in general (48:06) Or (48:09) In certain ways (48:10) Or (48:10) What (48:11) What (48:12) How does it (48:13) Affect you (48:13) How does it make you (48:14) Or how do you like (48:15) To do it (48:17) My emotions (48:18) You know (48:18) From my (48:19) My own (48:19) I've had dogs (48:20) All my life (48:20) And what they mean (48:21) To me (48:21) And how much (48:22) I think about them (48:23) You know (48:24) When I travel (48:24) I'm only (48:25) Counting the days (48:26) Away from the dogs (48:26) When my wife and I (48:27) Travel long road trips (48:29) It's only picking (48:30) You know (48:30) Motels that are good (48:31) For dogs (48:32) Yep (48:32) And we use apps (48:33) To determine that (48:34) It's always been (48:36) Dogs have been (48:36) The most important to me (48:37) The movie (48:38) I cried for half an hour (48:40) In bed (48:40) Twice in the last (48:42) Week or week and a half (48:43) And both times (48:44) When I go through (48:45) My favourite scenes (48:46) Of the movie Dog (48:47) Okay (48:48) It just makes me cry (48:49) I'm not even talking (48:49) About it with you (48:50) I'm tearing up (48:51) Because the dog (48:52) Does so many (48:53) Incredible things (48:54) To tell the human (48:55) What love (48:57) And a partnership (48:57) And a marriage is (48:58) And (48:59) Oh (49:00) What he does (49:01) He saves the human (49:02) The dog is the handler (49:03) What about (49:04) Did you ever see (49:05) The Art of Racing (49:07) I think it was (49:07) With the racing driver (49:08) And his dog (49:10) Yes I loved it (49:11) That was a good (49:11) Isn't that a great movie (49:12) Yes but that's not (49:13) The one that gets me (49:15) Emotionally (49:15) For what's going on (49:16) In people (49:17) In life (49:19) And there's a lot of (49:20) Other (49:20) A lot of other (49:21) You know (49:22) Good movies where (49:23) Dogs have (49:24) Important (49:25) Major roles (49:26) But that movie Dog (49:27) Is the one that just (49:28) Gets you (49:29) It's hard to watch (49:30) It's hard to watch (49:31) Because I know (49:31) How much I'm going (49:31) To cry through it (49:33) Was a boy (49:34) Who was a dreamer (49:36) And he flew (49:36) So high and proud (49:38) In a world (49:39) Full of people (49:40) Out to cut (49:41) His young ass (49:42) Down (49:43) No one ever (49:44) Understood (49:45) A single word (49:46) He said (49:47) And they cast (49:48) Him to the wolves (49:50) When he wasn't (49:51) Well and fed (49:57) But boys (49:58) We've got a riser (49:59) A riser (50:00) In our midst (50:01) And he will get (50:03) The last laugh (50:04) That's the last thing (50:05) He did (50:06) And he used to (50:07) Roll around (50:09) In that red (50:10) Dirt mud (50:11) But now he's (50:12) Skipping town (50:13) And that dreamer's (50:15) Out for blood (50:15) And he used to (50:20) No stop going (50:22) Going south (50:24) Cause they'll let you (50:26) Play your music (50:28) Real damn loud (50:30) No stop (50:31) Heading (50:31) Heading south (50:34) They will understand (50:36) The words (50:37) That are pouring (50:38) From your mouth (50:41) And that dreamer (50:43) Called his daddy (50:44) And tell him (50:46) What he did (50:46) And the masses screamed the lyrics of the messed up kid (50:51) And then he told his daddy he was never coming back (50:56) To be cut down again in a town like that (51:04) He surely came to learn when people come to watch you fall (51:09) That dreamer is out to make a name and a fool out of them all (51:14) And they'll never understand that boy and his kind (51:19) Cause all they comprehend is a worthless dollar sign (51:28) Don't stop moving, going south (51:32) Cause they'll let you play your music real damn loud (51:37) Don't stop heading, heading south (51:42) Cause they will understand the words that are pouring from your mouth (51:47) Don't stop moving, going south (51:50) Cause they'll let you play your music real damn loud (51:56) Don't stop heading, heading south (52:01) Cause they'll understand the words that are pouring from your mouth (52:11) Playing the next best rock (52:15) It's a digital revolution (52:25) Can't you feel her pain? (52:27) She needs someone to touch at night alone (52:31) She needs someone to comfort her then (52:35) Cause her agony (52:36) By taking away the only thing she ever cared to love (52:42) You tempered with her heart (52:44) Don't believe that you are not the one (52:49) To blame for it all (52:54) Cover your hands, turn your face to the wall (52:58) Can't you remember? (53:02) You can't remember then (53:09) You think you've got it made (53:12) You've got yourself a love that's more (53:15) Than you'd ever hoped that you could have (53:19) You can't remember when (53:21) You walked the streets alone and darkness plagued (53:26) Your every waking hour of the day (53:29) It's so easy when everything is right (53:34) You belong in a song (53:39) Can't you recall some terror in the night? (53:44) Can't you remember? (53:47) You can't remember then (54:28) So young and beautiful (54:30) They bring a joy to me (54:33) A love of life that I have never known before (54:38) Sweet and innocent (54:40) They can't believe, they won't believe (54:44) The things that causes their love to die (54:48) And if you would like to walk hand in hand (54:54) If you'd like to see the sun (54:58) Just believe no one will hurt you now (55:02) Can't you remember? (55:06) You can't remember then (55:41) We've got another question, it relates to the blue box (55:46) And it's from Joseph (55:48) A lot of people don't know what the blue box is (55:50) So you might explain it in a second (55:52) But the question is (55:54) Do you stay in touch with Captain Crunch? (55:57) Okay, first answer (55:59) I stay in touch with Captain Crunch (56:01) Who is Captain Crunch? (56:02) He was a famous phone freak (56:04) For using devices in early days (56:06) He's not like that anymore (56:09) But using devices that could make free calls (56:14) And he got arrested five times (56:16) And went to prison three times (56:19) Funny thing is, one of his times in prison (56:21) He had, in between prison sentences (56:23) We had started Apple (56:24) And I thought we connect to phone lines (56:27) We connect to power lines (56:28) We should connect to phone lines (56:30) And make an answering machine (56:31) To do the dial-a-joke that I was running (56:33) The first one in San Francisco area (56:36) And we should be able to make a dial-a-joke with a computer (56:38) And he sat down and developed this card with me (56:41) That could not only send out tones (56:43) Beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep (56:44) To dial numbers (56:45) It could listen to the tones (56:47) That the phone company sent back (56:48) Beep, beep, beep, beep, beep (56:49) You know, those little wails (56:50) And figure out what they were (56:51) Just programmed in basic (56:53) And he built this little board (56:55) And so anyway (56:58) It didn't become a product of Apple (57:01) It was 12 years ahead (57:02) Of when modems would do what his board would do (57:05) But it didn't become a product (57:07) Because the other people in Apple didn't like it (57:08) And they had to make it into a product (57:10) Me, I could just design (57:11) And so anyway (57:13) He went and he was in prison (57:15) And he was crying one day (57:16) And the printer and the computer I'd given him (57:19) His printer had gone bad or been stolen (57:22) Oh, I just bought a new super (57:24) It looks like a typewriter (57:26) It looks like a book you read (57:27) Letter quality printer (57:29) I just bought a couple of those (57:31) So I gave him one (57:32) While he was in prison (57:33) And he actually wrote a word processor (57:36) In a ridiculous language to do it in (57:39) Or fourth (57:39) He wrote a word processor called Easy Writer (57:43) And all of a sudden (57:44) With the spreadsheet (57:45) The Apple II became the big computer for business (57:49) The personal computer for business (57:50) And they wanted a letter quality printer (57:52) That looks reasonable quality (57:54) And it was the only word processor (57:56) Captain Crunch made a million dollars on that (57:59) Wow (57:59) You know (58:00) And I can help write part of it (58:01) I can help write part of it (58:02) Where you line up the letters (58:04) On the left and the right (58:05) He was just going to put extra spaces between words (58:07) Oh no (58:08) Letter quality printer had special commands (58:10) Where you could shift over (58:11) Even a seventh of a character (58:13) Seventh of a character (58:13) So I wrote that into it (58:14) And it was just wonderful (58:17) Yeah (58:17) But he came from this (58:19) There was an article in Esquire magazine (58:22) That really kicked off a lot of this (58:23) And I saw it the day before (58:25) I was going to go to Berkeley (58:26) For my third year of college (58:27) I saw it on my parents' table (58:29) And I never read Esquire (58:30) I flipped through it (58:31) There's this article (58:32) It says (58:33) Secrets of the little blue box (58:34) An interesting story (58:36) So interesting story (58:38) It's fiction (58:38) And I start reading about (58:40) All these incredible engineers (58:42) That know everything about the phone company (58:44) Some of them are blind (58:44) And they explore the phone companies (58:46) And they explore the network (58:47) And they figure out (58:48) How to make free calls (58:49) And set up networks (58:49) From pay phones (58:51) You know (58:51) That cross the country (58:53) Whoa (58:54) Halfway through the article (58:55) I had to call Steve Jobs (58:56) And start reading it to him (58:57) And then I said (58:58) Wait (58:59) Wait a minute (59:00) The problem is (59:00) This sounds too real (59:02) And it was (59:03) It was investigative reporting (59:04) It was totally (59:05) 100% real (59:06) All of it (59:07) We said (59:07) How could you make a device (59:09) That if you put out (59:10) 700 hertz tone (59:11) It's a certain tone (59:12) Plus a 900 (59:13) At the same time (59:14) It equals a one (59:15) To the phone company (59:16) Dialling systems (59:17) You know (59:18) It's not like touch tone (59:19) But (59:20) Could this be real? (59:22) And Steve and I (59:22) Went down to the one (59:23) Technical library (59:24) We knew we could get into (59:25) On a Sunday (59:26) Because the smartest people (59:27) In the world (59:27) Don't lock doors (59:29) Stanford (59:29) Linear accelerator centre (59:31) Was (59:31) No (59:32) The CERN of today (59:33) Is like the top (59:33) Physics research (59:34) Then it was Stanford (59:35) Linear accelerator centre (59:36) Slack (59:36) And we drive into (59:37) The main building (59:38) I always knew you'd find (59:39) At least one door unlocked (59:40) And they had a library (59:41) A technical library (59:42) That was incredible (59:43) And eventually (59:44) Going through there (59:45) Found this blue (59:46) White book (59:47) About phone company systems (59:49) And it had (59:50) 700 and 900 (59:51) Was a one (59:52) And 700 (59:53) And 1100 (59:54) Was a two (59:55) It had all the formulas (59:57) Exactly the ones (59:57) The few that were mentioned (59:58) In the article (59:59) And we looked at each other (1:00:00) And we were stunned (1:00:01) This is real (1:00:02) And then we went (1:00:03) We went down (1:00:04) And eventually (1:00:05) I designed a digital (1:00:06) Blue box (1:00:07) When nobody was doing (1:00:07) Digital yet (1:00:08) And it would put out (1:00:10) Perfect tones (1:00:10) That I wanted (1:00:11) And you could (1:00:12) Press little buttons (1:00:13) And dial anywhere (1:00:14) In the world for free (1:00:15) You could go through (1:00:15) Satellite (1:00:16) Whatever you wanted (1:00:18) This was (1:00:18) Just (1:00:19) How could it exist (1:00:21) Who would believe (1:00:21) You put tones (1:00:22) Into your own phone (1:00:23) And you can dial (1:00:24) Free calls anywhere (1:00:25) In the world (1:00:25) Back then (1:00:26) You couldn't even afford (1:00:27) To dial (1:00:28) Long distance calls (1:00:29) You know (1:00:29) Especially if you're a student (1:00:30) So that was quite a year (1:00:32) And Steve said (1:00:33) We should sell them (1:00:33) And we sold them (1:00:34) Through the dorms (1:00:35) In Berkeley (1:00:35) That year (1:00:37) But (1:00:38) One funny thing (1:00:39) I believe (1:00:40) The parts of the article (1:00:40) Were out to fix my bill (1:00:42) To find the problems (1:00:43) And tell my bill (1:00:44) And I wanted to be (1:00:45) One of those good guys (1:00:45) So when I made calls (1:00:47) To my relatives (1:00:48) Way down south (1:00:49) In Orange County (1:00:49) California (1:00:51) I paid (1:00:52) I did them on my (1:00:52) Dorm phone (1:00:53) And I paid (1:00:53) The long distance charges (1:00:54) I didn't use (1:00:56) The blue box (1:00:56) To get free calls (1:00:57) For myself (1:00:58) And that's probably (1:00:59) What barely kept me (1:01:00) Out of prison (1:01:03) 5705 (1:01:05) But there's no reply (1:01:11) 5705 (1:01:12) There ain't (1:01:28) Me (1:01:31) No reply (1:01:33) I (1:01:34) Pick up (1:01:35) The telephone (1:01:41) Cheated (1:01:43) And smoked (1:01:43) With my (1:01:44) No (1:01:51) 5705 (1:02:05) I (1:02:05) Didn't (1:02:06) Take (1:02:12) No reply (1:03:05) I (1:03:07) Didn't (1:03:14) Take (1:03:16) No reply (1:03:20) I (1:03:23) Didn't (1:03:24) Take (1:03:24) No reply (1:03:25) I (1:03:26) Didn't (1:03:39) Take (1:03:43) I (1:03:44) Didn't (1:03:45) Take (1:03:46) No reply (1:04:11) I (1:04:13) I (1:04:13) I'm sure you get heaps of those. (1:04:14) This is from Margarita.

 

(1:04:16) Do you miss Steve Jobs? (1:04:19) There were three Steve Jobses, (1:04:20) and the world kind of sees, (1:04:22) hears stories about there were two Steve Jobses, (1:04:24) one that was kind of cruel and rough to other people, (1:04:27) and came back, he was a little more mellow, (1:04:29) and eventually he hit it big with the iPod. (1:04:32) But I knew Steve Jobs zero before those two. (1:04:35) Five years before we started Apple, (1:04:38) met Steve Jobs, and I was so shy, (1:04:41) I had no friends, and anybody who understood me (1:04:42) appreciated me.

 

(1:04:43) He appreciated the fact I could design computers (1:04:46) already out of high school, (1:04:47) when there were no books in bookstores even. (1:04:49) There were no computers in schools. (1:04:52) So he appreciated me, so we became very good friends, (1:04:55) and he was exploring the world (1:04:56) as a young high school student.

 

(1:04:58) The counterculture movement was really big in the Bay Area, (1:05:01) and he'd eat seeds and walk barefoot, (1:05:03) and trying to find himself on nothing. (1:05:06) So the first day I met him, (1:05:07) I was like, I took him to my house (1:05:09) and showed him all the Bob Dylan records, (1:05:11) and that became a big part of our life. (1:05:12) We'd go to concerts together, (1:05:15) and you know, you'd seek out Dylan memorabilia, (1:05:18) that sort of thing.

 

(1:05:20) But Steve Jobs, do I miss him? (1:05:21) Of course, but I hear, I always hear his voice (1:05:23) from those earlier days before Apple. (1:05:25) See, when we started Apple, we got big money. (1:05:28) Why did we get big money? (1:05:30) My computer that I built all by myself.

 

(1:05:33) The Apple II, the first time arcade games would be colour, (1:05:36) the first time arcade games would be software, (1:05:38) so a nine-year-old could write a game in one day (1:05:40) rather than a skilled engineer (1:05:41) hooking up thousands of wires over a year. (1:05:43) And this computer was gonna be all of Apple's (1:05:46) only successful computer for the first 10 years of Apple. (1:05:50) It was the only thing that made money.

 

(1:05:52) One computer was credible to start a company, (1:05:54) so we got big money for it. (1:05:55) And now Steve Jobs was a founder of a company with big money. (1:05:59) I would only do things with my friend Steve Jobs.

 

(1:06:03) And he wanted to show the world (1:06:04) that he was the smartest person about things. (1:06:06) He wanted to be one of those Shakespeare's (1:06:08) that takes us forward. (1:06:09) And he didn't have the academic background (1:06:12) or anything to be there, (1:06:13) but now he had a chance with a big company.

 

(1:06:16) So he just wanted to present himself to the world (1:06:17) as the thinker of computers. (1:06:19) But every time he tried to create a computer at Apple, (1:06:21) it failed, failed hard. (1:06:24) So he didn't understand computer hardware or software.

 

(1:06:27) You should understand it from the inside. (1:06:29) And I have a lot of stories and memories of him, (1:06:32) but we were always friends right to the end (1:06:33) because, I don't know, some people sort of had a white hat. (1:06:38) They'd helped him.

 

(1:06:39) They'd done good things for him, (1:06:40) and he never got angry at them like he did other people. (1:06:43) No. (1:06:44) Although when it came time to share in the spoils (1:06:50) of your successes at Apple, (1:06:54) you had no resistance at all (1:06:57) in helping some of the people in Apple (1:07:01) who deserved a substantial share of the profits.

 

(1:07:06) And you shared that with them. (1:07:08) And it's true, isn't it, that Steve Jobs didn't? (1:07:12) It's true. (1:07:12) It was shown in a movie with Ashton Kutcher (1:07:14) where he was turning down an early person (1:07:16) for some stock that the guy really deserved.

 

(1:07:19) And it wasn't. (1:07:20) And the guy who played me, Josh Gad, had read my book. (1:07:23) He wanted to tell them in the story (1:07:24) how I gave tens of millions of dollars of my stock (1:07:26) to five early people.

 

(1:07:28) Why would I have done what I did if they weren't there? (1:07:30) And then I gave tens of millions of dollars of my stock. (1:07:32) I sold it to the employees. (1:07:33) And so they each pre-IPO, (1:07:35) and they each got about a house out of the deal (1:07:37) because they're working for the same company.

 

(1:07:39) I just had my values that I thought out for myself. (1:07:42) And I told myself, this is who I am (1:07:44) when I was 20 years old or before 20. (1:07:47) And I didn't divert from that person.

 

(1:07:49) I wasn't gonna let my values be spoiled by some huge wealth. (1:07:53) I mean, I was afraid that that would ever happen in my life. (1:07:55) So I did not sell out.

 

(1:07:57) And I gave my money away, (1:07:58) basically to museums and everything, (1:08:00) in the city I was born in, San Jose, California. (1:08:03) And they named a street after me. (1:08:05) Who can get that? (1:08:06) I mean, without being a developer, how do you get that? (1:08:10) So I have a lot of good things.

 

(1:08:12) But as far as sharing and all that, (1:08:15) before Apple, Steve sort of had a job at Atari, (1:08:18) but he couldn't design stuff. (1:08:19) He wasn't that good an engineer. (1:08:21) And he asked me if I could design this game for them, (1:08:23) a one-player pawn game called Breakout.

 

(1:08:26) And where you hit the ball against the bricks (1:08:28) and they disappear. (1:08:29) And I went in, I had four days and nights to do it. (1:08:33) The hottest designer in the world, that was me.

 

(1:08:36) That's how I felt. (1:08:37) But to do it four days and nights, (1:08:40) this is not possible, but I took it on, did it. (1:08:43) We delivered a Breakout to Atari in four nights.

 

(1:08:46) And Steve said we got paid 700 bucks. (1:08:48) And he wrote me a check for half of that. (1:08:51) And 12 years later, when the Macintosh came out, (1:08:54) it's on an aeroplane with some of the early Mac designers, (1:08:57) taking them to tell their stories (1:08:59) to computer clubs out east.

 

(1:09:00) And one of them said they read a book on Atari. (1:09:02) And I said, oh, I designed Breakout for Atari. (1:09:04) Was that in there? (1:09:05) He said, yeah, that was in there.

 

(1:09:06) I said, yeah, we got paid $700. (1:09:08) And he said, no, it said you got paid thousands. (1:09:12) I was crying, I was crying on the plane (1:09:15) because Steve Jobs knew the type of person I was.

 

(1:09:17) He could have just said, I need all the money, (1:09:20) the thousands of dollars to buy into a commune up in Oregon. (1:09:24) I would have given it all to him, take it all. (1:09:26) You got it, I just do this on the side for fun.

 

(1:09:29) I have a job as an engineer at Hewlett Packard. (1:09:31) I would have done that. (1:09:33) But no, I cried because how does a friend (1:09:36) do that sort of thing to another friend? (1:09:38) How did you get over that? (1:09:39) I mean, it must have been a very painful period.

 

(1:09:43) No, no, I don't even think about it. (1:09:46) I always go on and live, look at the happy things. (1:09:50) And I just sort of say, I would have, (1:09:53) he could have had it all anyway.

 

(1:09:56) I met the people that paid him too. (1:09:58) I knew them at Atari, but that's sort of a little sad. (1:10:02) He only did one other bad thing to me really ever.

 

(1:10:05) And it was, he thought that I was leaving Apple (1:10:07) at one point because he was favouring Macintosh (1:10:10) over our Apple II. (1:10:12) And it wasn't true at all. (1:10:13) I had made a phone call to John Scully.

 

(1:10:15) Why at the shareholders meeting (1:10:17) did you not mention the Apple II? (1:10:18) All these engineers are storming up and down the aisles (1:10:20) and they want to quit. (1:10:21) They want to leave Apple and they're good. (1:10:24) And somehow the Wall Street Journal called (1:10:26) and I sort of told them some of that story (1:10:28) and they printed it as though I was leaving Apple (1:10:30) because of that.

 

(1:10:32) And it's a lie. (1:10:33) Every other journal picked it, newspaper, (1:10:36) every other book from then on picked up that story. (1:10:39) Funny thing is I never left Apple.

 

(1:10:41) I've been an employee getting a pay cheque (1:10:43) every week since we started the company to today. (1:10:46) I have never really left Apple. (1:10:49) And I even showed the startup I was gonna work on (1:10:52) outside of Apple to engineers.

 

(1:10:54) And so they would see I wasn't competing with anything. (1:10:56) I was competing with everything Apple was interested in. (1:10:58) And but Steve Jobs just got the wrong impression.

 

(1:11:01) So he walked into a place where we were building (1:11:03) the first universal remote control for TVs and all. (1:11:07) And he walked into Frog Design (1:11:09) that we had used to design plastics. (1:11:11) And they told him, we're doing this project (1:11:13) for your partner.

 

(1:11:14) And he threw the pieces against the wall, (1:11:17) said, put it in a box and send it to me. (1:11:19) Everything you do belongs to Apple. (1:11:21) Oh, wow.

 

(1:11:22) How could a human being, (1:11:24) how could a human being do that? (1:11:26) I would never bring up a child that be that way. (1:11:28) But he was under a misimpression (1:11:30) that I had something negative about him or Apple. (1:11:33) I didn't.

 

(1:11:59) ♪ Don't you want somebody to love? ♪ (1:12:29) ♪ Don't you need somebody to love? ♪ (1:12:32) ♪ Wouldn't you love somebody to love? ♪ (1:12:35) ♪ Do you ever find somebody to love? ♪ (1:12:41) ♪ Oh, wouldn't you love somebody to love? ♪ (1:13:10) ♪ Do you ever find somebody to love? ♪ (1:13:14) ♪ Get your eyes, oh, get your eyes in the mirror, darling. ♪ (1:13:25) ♪ Across the street. ♪ (1:15:32) Thank you very much for joining us.

 

(1:15:34) We really appreciate your time. (1:15:36) We know how busy you are, of course. (1:15:38) Thanks a lot, Steve.

 

(1:15:39) No, I'm very honoured. (1:15:40) I'm very glad to see things like NET.FM. (1:15:42) It's just ideas are ideas, (1:15:44) but actually going out and doing something (1:15:45) and making something. (1:15:46) My gosh, that's really what is important to me.

 

(1:15:50) And I'm glad Nick did that. (1:15:51) You are listening to NET.FM, (1:15:53) the longest running internet radio station on the planet. (1:16:00) So stay where you are (1:16:02) because we've programmed an awesome mix.

 

(1:16:05) You just can't miss. (1:16:08) You hear it? You hear it?

29 September, 2023 (© Copyright NetFM)